We are going to do a Class Participation on this. There is a plethora of statistics by which we define players. With Pitchers, fans traditionally have used win and loses, saves, ERA, SO, BB, and WHIP, but there is also BABIP, DICE, ERA+, and CERA. There are also a vast number of others. With hitters, it has traditionally been BA, SLG, OPS, OPS+, wRC+, and WAR… to name but a few.
If you could pick two statistics for both Hitters and Pitchers, what would they be and why? Baseball has changed – evolved to a great degree, and it is ever-evolving. I think stats are enlightening, but they are not the end-all-be-all. They are an analysis too. Player evaluation using the “eye test” is highly subjective, but certain statistics can affirm what you may see. For example, you may think that a player is fast, so timing him from home to first base can confirm that.
We use our eyes, and we use stats to confirm what our eyes see. The smaller the sample, the more skewed the statistics. The larger the sample determines what is the norm. So, let’s hear it. Weigh in with what your favorite stats might be, but if you could only use two to evaluate pitchers and two to evaluate hitters, what would they be?
Five Days Until Pitchers & Catchers Report… Although a lot are Already There!
Discussion (20)
Disagree, not disagreeable
So about that “youth movement”….
Looks like 35-year-old David Peralta will now be part of a platoon in LF. Signed for $6.5 with incentives that can take it to $8 million, he’s practically ensured a spot on the roster. He’s another lefthanded hitter who hits righthanded pitching well.
So this has to be considered not-great news for Outman, Busch, Trayce, Busch, Heyward. Maybe not great for Taylor, but he’s got a nice contract that would be hard to trade.
The outfield already seemed a bit crowded now. Peralta is a good player, especially in a platoon, but he might end up blocking promising players like Outman and Busch who are ten years younger. The fact that both Outman and Busch are both 25, not 22, strikes me as a reason to play them–not get them more “seasoning” in the minors.
This move leaves me wondering if AF & Associates are already plotting another move on the chessboard. Could Busch and Outman (be included in a deal for Reynolds?
Hmmm…
Betts RF
Freeman 1B
Smith C
Muncy 3B
JDM DH
Reynolds CF
Lux SS
Vargas 2B
Peralta/Taylor LF
Very surprised to see Peralta signing at $6.5 million with incentives. He is almost 36 and strictly a platoon LFer against RHP. I would think this makes Heyward and Busch less likely options. And the luxury tax reset is off the table unless Taylor is traded prior to the beginning of the season.
Even Friedman makes some questionable moves. He let Joc and Kike leave after the 2020 championship for $7 million salaries for 1 and 2 years. Both excelled in the 2021 playoffs, while the Dodgers played Souza and McKinney in the postseason. In 2022, AF brought in Alberto and Gallo to fill the roles of Kike and Joc. Now Rojas and Peralta are being brought in to replace their contributions. Prospects Beeter and Amaya were traded away to get Gallo and Rojas also. And after letting Joc and Kike walk for $7 million each, AF opted to pay Taylor 4 years at $15 million a season.
AF could have simply brought back Kike and Joc on modest salaries in 2021 and 2022, but instead made Bauer the highest paid player in baseball. Too bad the Dodgers didn’t just keep the championship gang together.
OREL HERSHISER AND MANNY MOTA NAMED ‘LEGENDS OF DODGER BASEBALL’ PRESENTED BY BANK OF AMERICA
The duo will become the 6th and 7th Dodgers inducted as Legends
LOS ANGELES – The Los Angeles Dodgers today announced that Orel Hershiser and Manny Mota will be the next two Dodger greats inducted into the Legends of Dodger Baseball, presented by Bank of America, and will have their careers celebrated during the 2023 season.
Legends of Dodger Baseball is a recognition of Dodger greats and their impact on the franchise, both on and off the field. Inductees receive a plaque honoring their Dodger achievements, which will also be on permanent display at Dodger Stadium.
“Orel Hershiser and Manny Mota truly define the spirit, dedication and excellence that we strive for at the Dodgers,” said Dodger President and CEO Stan Kasten. “Both have been fixtures at Dodger Stadium and in the Los Angeles community for multiple generations of Dodger fans and we can’t wait to honor their storied careers this season.”
Mota will be honored during pregame ceremonies prior to the 6:10 p.m. game vs. the St. Louis Cardinals on April 29. Hershiser will be celebrated prior to the 6:10 p.m. contest vs. the Cincinnati Reds on July 29.
Steve Garvey, Don Newcombe and Fernando Valenzuela made up the inaugural Legends of Dodger Baseball class in 2019. Maury Wills and Kirk Gibson were inducted during the 2022 season.
Hershiser played 13 of his 18 seasons with the Dodgers and the three-time All-Star right-hander was the driving force behind the 1988 World Series Championship. That season, Hershiser led the National League in wins (23), innings pitched (267), shutouts (8) and complete games (15) en route to a Cy Young Award and set the all-time Major League record of 59 consecutive scoreless innings (Aug. 30-Sept. 28). He secured his place in Dodger lore with a dominant 1988 Postseason, where he earned both NLCS and World Series MVP honors and became the only player in history to win those honors in addition to the Cy Young Award in the same season. He later received both The Sporting News Pitcher of the Year and Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year awards for his brilliant season.
“I am humbled to be inducted into the Legends of Dodger Baseball with my wonderful friend, coach and mentor Manny Mota,” said Hershiser. “This is the part of life that you never imagined. To think I was drafted in the 17th round in 1979 and here now I am still representing this great organization. The Dodgers have been one of the most important parts of my life. I love my teammates, I love this organization and I love you fans. The experiences that I’ve had in uniform on and off the field have taken my life to places I never thought I could go. Thank you so much for this recognition and God bless all of you.”
Hershiser played baseball at Bowling Green (OH) State University and was drafted in the 17th round by the Dodgers in the 1979 Major League First-Year Player Draft. It was during a game in his rookie year of 1984, that Hershiser was nicknamed “Bulldog,” in an effort by Dodgers Hall of Fame manager Tommy Lasorda to get Hershiser to adopt a tougher attitude on the mound. It worked, as Hershiser had his first stellar campaign in 1985, going 19-3 with a 2.03 ERA while helping lead the club to an NL-West crown.
Since his retirement in 2000, he was held titles of Special Assistant to the GM and pitching coach with the Texas Rangers while forging a terrific broadcasting career, including the last nine with the Dodgers. Hershiser returned to Los Angeles in 2014 and has been instrumental in the award-winning Dodger broadcast on SNLA.
Mota has been a member of the Dodger organization for more than 50 years as a player, coach and broadcaster and was the longest-tenured coach in Dodger history (1980-2018). He played 20 Major League seasons with San Francisco (1962), Pittsburgh (1963-68), Montreal (1969) and the Dodgers (1969-80, ’82), batting .304 and retiring as baseball’s all-time pinch-hit leader with 150. Mota was an All-Star for the Dodgers in 1973 and after retiring as a player in 1980, he joined the Dodgers’ coaching staff as the club’s first base coach and batting instructor but was re-activated on Aug. 29 of that year when Reggie Smith went on the disabled list. He was also activated from the coaching staff for one game in 1982, his 816th contest as a Dodger, which rank as the fourth most among all Los Angeles players born in the Dominican Republic.
“This is a great honor and a great privilege, and I’m very grateful to the Dodgers for selecting me as a Legend of Dodger Baseball,” said Mota. “I don’t consider myself a legend, just another person who always tried to contribute to the Dodgers and give my best. I am humbled and really appreciate what the Dodgers are doing for me. I consider Dodger Stadium my home away from home, and I consider myself to be an adopted son of the Dodger organization.”
He has participated in five World Series with the Dodgers as a player or coach, was inducted into the Hispanic Heritage Baseball Museum in 2003 and has also been awarded the Deportista Meritorio in the Dominican Republic, a lifetime achievement award honoring his baseball career and citizenship. In 2022, he was inducted into the Latino Baseball Hall of Fame. Mota and his wife, Margarita, operate a youth baseball league during the offseason and the Manny Mota International Foundation, a non-profit organization which has raised money to build a medical clinic, baseball fields and a school in the Dominican Republic.
Peralta,, what?? Well guess luxury tax ain’t a thing which changes a lot.
Seemed like a simple question:
“What is the Best Stat for Hitters and Pitchers?“
Way things are these days I assumed every team had a room of Ivy League grads crunching numbers all day. Seems like lot of the fan base tries there hand at it to. The stat I care about the most is what size ring
Not a stat geek. I look at wins and losses and where the team is in the standings, at the end of the season that is the only stat that matters.
Mark
BA and OPS for both batters and pitchers. You can find that in slashlines.
The 2 most important stats in a slashline for batters are BA and OPS because you can narrow down OBP and SLG to OPS because OBP + SLG = OPS. BA is important from a slashline because it tells you whether a batter relies mostly on walks (OBP – BA) and power (SLG), 2 of the 3 things of a 3 true outcome hitter besides the strikeouts that you can find elsewhere.
The 2 most important things that a batter does to contribute to the team’s success is getting on base (OBP) and hitting for power (SLG) whether it’s doubles, triples, home runs. OBP + SLG = OPS.
On the pitcher’s side of things the same thing, slashlines. The only thing that is missing from a slashline that is important is strikeouts that can be found elsewhere.
The most important things a pitcher can do to contribute to a team’s success is keeping batters off the bases (hits or walks and combined is OBP) and allowing extra base hits (SLG). Again OBP + SLG = OPS. If you want to know the details of OPS you can find it in the rest of the slashline. Strikeouts are also important because it’s better to get a stikeout than to rely on defense to get the out.
So there are 3 total stats that are the best to use. BA, OPS, and whatever stat that a person wants to use for strikeouts, I like SO%. But the 2 most important are BA and OPS if I had to narrow it down to 2.
By the way you could look elsewhere (other stats) and come to the same conclusion that a slashline tells you. The difference is that a slashline is basic and is listed together.
If you could figure things out using just a few stats then a AF wouldn’t have a room full of Ivy League grads crunching numbers all day every day!
The problem with looking at just one or two stats is that it doesn’t provide helpful context. Sure, I like OPS and OPS+, but they don’t provide context. Consider Maury Wills. His highest OPS was in 1962, his MVP year. It was .720 and his OPS+ was 99. But he stole 104 bases, scored 130 runs, had 759 AB(!) (he played in all 165 games during the regular season) and was MVP.
Today’s status undervalue a player like Wills and his contributions. The Dodgers don’t go to the World Series in 1965 or 66 without him.
dodgerpatch
To clarify to you and to answer your question from yesterday. Hopefully it makes you less frustrated with my post yesterday.
1) I like Turner better because he was a Dodger for many years.
2) Badger said “out produced” that means hitting/offense and W.A.R is part defense and that was the point I was making.
“Do you ever consider that maybe you’re assumptions are not correct, or you just haven’t looked deeply at the stats to try to understand them to at least make a good assessment … and therefore say something insightful?”
Can’t you see this statement from you is frustrating because you never said which stats? So which stats are you talking about?
I love stats, what baseball fan doesn’t but in these modern times there’s so many being constantly thrown out there at us I’m more inclined to enjoy and use the eye test more and check stats to see how much In line with them and the the eyes don’t always agree with the stats for various reasons but for players don’t get to see very often stats are vital and of course there a fun part of the fan experience of all the players. I reckon I’m so old school WHIP for pitching and OPS for hitting. The older simpler ones. My favorites are players reaching the big season long numbers, 200 hits 100 driven in 35 homers ERA under 2.00.
semeod- Agree!
My favorite stats
Hitters: OP+ (which is ballpark adjusted) and rOBA which accounts for the batted ball outs vs strikeouts and the varying importance of GIDP’s and strikeouts over time.
Pitchers:It’s simpler here for me as I use WHIP and RA9.
This is off the topic of stats, but The Athletic raved again about the Dodger’s Prospects. In summary, here’s what was said:
Ryan Pepiot: Will Rhymes said that he battled his mechanics throughout the summer, and in the process of tinkering with his breaking ball, he lost the feel for his signature pitch, the changeup. All that led to Pepiot missing plenty of bats but also missing the strike zone too often, especially against left-handed hitters. Correcting the command issues are a must for him to play any sort of starter’s role. Rhymes called it a “learning year” for Pepiot.
Mike Grove: “He’s the only player Friedman has ever called up directly from Double A during his time as an executive (dating back to his Rays days), and Grove made it a year after a significant mechanical overhaul. “He won a lot of credibility with the guys for his willingness to take the ball and make no excuses and just come after guys,” Rhymes said. Grove relies on three quality big-league pitches and enough guile to get him through a lineup a few times through the order. That versatility will fit a role the Dodgers have excelled in filling.”
Bobby Miller: They said that Miller made great strides in terms of sequencing and game-planning and ended with this: “but it’s clear that Miller’s arrival this summer is a matter of when, not if.”
Gavin Stone : Rhymes admitted that Stone was in consideration for a playoff spot last season. The article ended with this: “Despite Stone’s small frame for a pitcher (he’s listed at 6-foot-1, 175 pounds), Rhymes described his delivery as “electric,” generating mid-90s velocity, deception and arm speed that sells the new changeup that Law said is already a “plus-plus” pitch.
He’s a quick adjuster, one who picked up the changeup and made it a dynamic weapon. That could be a launching pad to make him an integral part of the club’s pitching staff come next October.”
comment in jail
Because I frequently use Fangraphs for all of my baseball data stuff, I’m just in the habit of looking at wRC+ as the closest thing to that “one offensive stat to rule them all.” Baseball Reference uses OPS+, which is almost the same.
https://library.fangraphs.com/offense/wrc/
It’s a rate state versus a counting stat like WAR, so it’s not dependent on how many plate appearances a player gets, and is based around a league average of 100, so I can quickly glance and see if a player’s offensive production is above or below average. I don’t have to gauge it off some feeling of what a good batting average should be, and takes into consideration all of the offensive actions that directly contribute to run creation, and then adjusts for the park and the league. It probably isn’t a perfect stat, but I think it comes to closest to giving a good overall picture of a player’s offensive contribution versus league averages.
What I usually do is first glance at a player’s wRC+ number when looking at the player’s Fangraph page, and then scan to the left and see what the relative contributions were to that wRC+ score. For example, if I just looked at JDM’s stats versus Freedie Freeman’s stats and look at their best wRC+, I can see that, in their top years, their wRC+ number was roughly the same, but Freeman walks more than JDM, but JDM had a much higher home run total, but only a slightly better ISO number. Batting averages favor Freeman. So, I would conclude that Freddie is a better guy to put in the second or third spot in the order. He creates runs with doubles power and getting on base with walks and BA. JDM is the guy who could clear the bases with a HR.
I like B’sPG. It lets me know how much fun I’m having at the game!
OPS for hitters
I look at WHIP and ERA+ for pitchers
Obviously there are more stats to look at for both.
I’m a bit more old-school so I still look at OBP & SLG.
For a pitcher I guess I can do WHIP and K/BB.