SponsorUS Water Systems
LA Dodger Talk

Old School – Analytics

I am old school. Never have claimed to be anything but. Baseball has been a part of my life, a big part, for over 60 years. LA was a minor league city until the Dodgers moved here in 1958. We played the game anywhere we could, usually on our school playground. Some played little league, others did not. I never really had any coaching until I played little league. Then

By Michael "Bear" Norris10 min readJump to 112 comments

I am old school. Never have claimed to be anything but. Baseball has been a part of my life, a big part, for over 60 years. LA was a minor league city until the Dodgers moved here in 1958. We played the game anywhere we could, usually on our school playground. Some played little league, others did not.

I never really had any coaching until I played little league. Then the coach showed me how to position myself to catch grounders and what to do with fly balls and pop ups since I was playing 1st base most of the time.

I knew how to bunt, but rarely got that sign since I was considered a power hitter by our coach. We did not steal much, but not many little league teams do since you cannot lead off.

But I watched as many games as I could and was amazed, they could stand there and put themselves in harm’s way with a pitch coming at them as fast as a speeding car.

I loved watching Maury Wills and Jr. Gilliam. Wills would get on, steal a base, Gilliam would either sacrifice him to third, or get a hit, or pull the ball to the right side, give himself up, and get Maury to third. Then someone would hit a sac fly or a single, or sometimes even take the ball out of the park, and voila, a Dodger rally.

Baseball was a different game back then. We were taught to hit the ball squarely. Also to go with the pitch, do not try and pull everything. If memory serves, and sometimes it does not, I rarely pulled the ball. Most of my hits went up the middle, or to left center.

I loved watching pitching duels. Although more nerve racking than the games when the team scored a lot of runs. But I loved watching great hitters too. And my generation was blessed, we had so many that would later be in the Hall.

Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Banks, Kaline, Cepeda, McCovey. Snider, Carew, Robinson, and others who were very good, but not hall worthy. And of course, Mr. Hustle, Pete Rose.

Rose does not get talked about much anymore, but he was a ballplayer. Not blessed with great size or athleticism, he made up for it with tenacious play and a burning desire to get better. And Pete Rose wanted to beat you. It took a while and some pretty good trades and acquisitions, but his Reds finally became a powerhouse in the 70’s.

Hit and run, bunts, steals. That was the kind of offense we were weaned on. Pitching and pitchers were far different animals. Pitchers were taught to finish what they started. Players were always on one year deals, and some still had to work in the off season.

To me, and I understand this is a personal choice, the game was better. There were no long dragged out meetings on the mound, most games were not interrupted by multiple pitching changes in an inning. Occasionally there were some memorable fights. But the game seemed to have a flow. The players were exciting to watch and the pitchers threw some nasty stuff.

Pitchers. Ahh, I got to see some truly great ones in those years. Ford, Wynn, missed seeing Feller by a couple of years, Spahn, Marichal, Gibson, Koufax, Drysdale, Wilhelm, Palmer, and a lot who followed, Blyleven, Kaat, Lolich, McLain, last pitcher to win 30, Maddux, Glavine. The list goes on. And these guys finished games. That is what they felt they were paid to do.

Things change as they always do. I am not sure exactly when analytics creeped into the game, but I am pretty sure Beane used it extensively before anyone else.

Now the numbers on the back of the cards that were the basis for judging a player’s worth to a team virtually began to mean nothing. What? BA means zip and OBP is more telling?

Most of us could not understand what in the blue blazes they were talking about. Hey, a guy hits .300, with 30 homers and 100 ribbies he is pretty good. A pitcher might have a 4.67 ERA, but he won 20 games! He has to be valuable. I just did not get it, and no numbers cruncher was ever going to convince me that wins, BA, RBI’s were not important stats.

I am, and always have been, an eye test guy. I could watch players on the field and over time get a sense of what kind of player they were. I will use one of my favorite whipping boys as an example. Yasmani Grandal.

Yasmani Grandal by all accounts and reports is one of the best pitch framers in the game. Until he came to the Dodgers, poor ignorant me did not even know this was a thing or a skill. And indeed I could see that this guy was pretty adept at getting balls called strikes.

Chalk up one for the analytic geeks. But he also was one of the worst at blocking balls in the dirt, and had a high passed ball count almost every year in blue. Chalk up one for us old school grey beards.

Grandal had a ton of power from the left side, and not so much from the right. His career numbers prove that. In his 4 years as a Dodger he topped 20 homers every year but the first one. His BA high was .247, and the low was .228. His OBP high was .353, and the low .307. His K rate was close to double his walk rate over the 4 years.

So over all he did a decent job, always seemed to fade come playoff time, and in 2017 lost his starting job late in the year to Austin Barnes. But he was also to my eyes mind you, not a clutch hitter. I saw him hit many HR’s that allowed the team to pile on, but rarely one that won a game, or put the team in a tie or ahead in the game. Here to me is a telling statistic. In wins he hit .267, more than 20 points higher than his career average, and right at the Mendoza line, .206 in losses. He has 92 homers in wins, and 50 in losses.

I guess you could say, I did not understand what baseball people were looking at that had these players rated the way they were. I saw Mike Piazza his rookie year. One of the first at bats I saw of his he hit a line drive off of the left center field wall for a double, and that thing was one of the hardest hit balls I had ever seen. I just knew this guy was a masher.

My eyes had never deceived me. So when AF took the reins, and started retooling the team using analytics, and not good old fashioned baseball tools type of scouting and evaluating, I was more than a bit perturbed.

But I know baseball as much as it is a sport, and evolving continually, it is more than anything else, the entertainment business, and they are here to make money.

I am just now, after all these years getting to understand what WAR means. Do I care? Probably not. Simply because I still use the eye test. You have to be blind to not see how bad some of these guys are struggling this year. I do not need the WAR stat to tell me most of them could be replaced very easily. There are so many different stats they use now, baseball cards would have to be 8X10’s to list them all.

I do not know what dWar is. And frankly, I care little. I do know I can see when they are not playing good defense with my own eyes. I do not think, oh gee, Kike’s dWar took a hit. But when I see a player like Joc go through a 1-20 slump, his BA is not going to look good in the morning.

I guess one of the things that really confused me about all of this is how analytic geeks have devalued what a win means on a pitchers resume. The game is over 100 years old. For the first 4/5ths of its life, pitchers are evaluated by their wins and their ERA’s and now that is not so?

For a pitcher to get a win, a starter anyway, they have to go five innings. Pitchers in the pen get wins all sorts of ways. Extra innings when the team comes back and wins, coming in in a tie game, and the team takes the lead. Stopping the opposition and the team scores while they are the pitcher of record.

After all, doesn’t the team that WINS the most games at the end of the season stand as the Champion of the division? I just could not understand how someone devalues that. When CK passed Koufax on the all-time win list last year, everyone made a pretty big deal of it.

I doubt we will ever see a 300 win pitcher again. No current starter in MLB is close. 200 is the new 300. Pitchers just do not pitch complete games anymore. It is not important in the new baseball. Bullpens are in the game at the end of the game almost every time.

Players are paid enormous sums these days, and keeping them healthy and contributing is the main focus. Analytics are used in every facet of the game. Even when considering who to draft. Computers cut down the paper work considerably.

I guess when you come down to it, for the people who run the game today, it will never change. As for me, as a fan, I cannot understand most of it, but I know it is in the game to stay.

But also as a fan, I cannot say it has changed the game for the better. Players are hitting more HR’s than ever, but they are striking out more too. That’s because even the K has been devalued. Striking out is now no big deal. When I played, it was something I NEVER wanted to have as the end result of an at bat.

And striking out too much kept a lot of players from ever reaching the heights some thought they would.  I love the Dodgers. Always have, but I can honestly say. this is not the most exciting baseball team to watch. And they have gone that route before.

Baseball does not have a lot of characters anymore. There are some very good athletic players, and they go about their business and play hard. But someone who gets you excited every time they step to the plate because you think you might see something special? Not so much.

Mike Trout is the best all-around player in the major leagues. He has 3 MVP trophies to prove that. Mookie Betts is the most exciting player on the Dodgers. He proves that every game simply with his hard play and baseball IQ. But Trout to me is not exciting to watch. He is just a perfectionist with a steady solid approach that never changes.

Analytics have changed the way players are evaluated. Front offices and scouts look for different traits than they did when I first started loving the game. And in the adopting of these numbers and tendencies, some of the basic parts of the game have come to mean little. Bunting is a dying art. Hitting the ball where it is pitched is rarely seen. It is all about launch angle and exit velocity. With pitchers it is spin rate.

I will always love the game, and I have to live with the way it is analyzed and played because it is what the game has become. But there are days when I close my eyes and see # 7 with that sweet swing connecting and sending one into the RF bleachers, or laying down a perfect bunt and beating it out. Or #24, running full speed towards the CF fence and making an over the shoulder catch and losing his cap as he often did doing it. Or # 32, firing another fastball that the batter could only hear and not see into the catcher’s mitt. And sometimes breaking off a curveball that made the batter look so absolutely over matched when he swung.

And finally, watching # 30, take that lead, dive back a time or two, and then with the crowd yelling his name take off for second and beat the throw easily in a cloud of dust.

Have analytics made the game better? I think that determination is in the eye of the person watching the game. As for me, I am as always an old school guy. Give me a Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays over anyone on the field today anytime. They were as exciting as it gets.

Discussion (112)

Disagree, not disagreeable

Be civil — moderation is real. Links may need a moment of review.

  1. Michael Norris (AKA Bear)August 25, 2020

    I am glad Mark finally admitted he was old……school…LOL.. hey I understand the game has evolved. I get that and I have accepted that. But I still maintain that the game is not better. Not to my eyes at least. You use the data you have. Guys before computers kept notes, Hershiser said he had 3X5 index cards. Some of the more mental guys had a mental book on pitchers. Way to many strikeouts, too many easy ground outs into the shift. How that makes for a better game is beyond me. Lakers beating the Blazers by plenty at the half.

  2. Jeff DominiqueAugust 25, 2020

    Lux and Reks look ready. Raley had a 2 hit game. I do not think any of those 3 would embarass themselves with the ML club. Rios got some swings in early batting second each of the first two innings for both teams. Did not run anything out.

    Neither Wood or Gonsolin were amped at all. They were just getting work in. Bobby Miller looked pretty good. It’s hard to say how good because you have no idea how hard he is throwing and did not have an umpire calling strikes. But his breaking ball looked good (not Walker Buehler good, but still a lot of movement). AJ Ramos also had a good inning. They would need to clear a 40 man spot for him, but I would like to see what he can do at the ML level. He did very well as a Marlin. Maybe there will be a spot available after the weekend.

    I do not think you get a lot out of it watching from home (for me on a small screen), but it was still fun to see the pool guys play.

  3. Jeff DominiqueAugust 25, 2020

    I do not think Ruiz is doing his pitchers any favors by his large strike zone. I think Lux told him to call it right after the first Edubray Ramos pitch was inside the RH batters box and called a strike. This was after a called 3rd strike his previous AB that was way inside.

  4. Jeff DominiqueAugust 25, 2020

    Gonsolin stretches it out to 99 pitches. He should get the call in Texas either Saturday or Sunday. Lynn ischeduled to pitch Saturday. It might be fun to see Lynn against the CatMan. Lux (2 HRs) and Reks (2 HRs and a double) did well against Gonsolin. I think he had 8 Ks. But what a difference a catcher is. Ruiz was calling anything in the zip code a strike while Wood & Miller had to groove one before Gale and Cartaya would call a strike. They should be up there hacking anyway.

  5. Mark TimmonsAugust 25, 2020

    I read Bear’s post this AM and have thought about it all day.

    I am old school in a lot of ways.

    I think being old school is bad. You are stuck! You can’t grow.

    But I am also New School in a lot of ways.

    I also think new school is bad. New is not always better… but it might be.

    The horse was great… until the car.

    I think that AF is a combination of old school and new school. Stats and analytics have been and always will be part of this great game of baseball., but we should not worship them. They are a tool. When Kirk Gibson stepped out of the batter’s box on a 3-2 count in the 1988 World Series, he relied on “analytics” from Mel Didier who had logged Dennis Eckersley’s proclivity to always throw a backup slider on a 3-2 count. Analytics won that World Series.

    But, it took a scout to discern that. The Dodgers likely have more scouts than most teams. The teams that devalue scouts and the human element are doomed to fail. I think AF fully understands that. Analytics and sabermetrics are just another tool.

    You have to try new things… step out of your comfort zone… look at things differently.

    Thirty years ago, I read Graham & Dodd’s Security Analysis. I learned that in investing, you gather all the data you can and then make a decision on that data. That’s what AF does. I am sure that they have Zoom calls with all of the brain trust and bounce ideas back and forth and the consensus wins.

    I am very comfortable with old school… merging with new school!

    Evolve or die!

  6. Singing The BlueAugust 25, 2020

    Has Zach Reks hit one or two homers today? I thought I saw him hit two but I might have been mistaken.

    Miller looks pretty good from what I’ve seen so far.

  7. DodgerBlueMomAugust 25, 2020

    I can not see who is who but noticed a pitcher named Miller, number 93, looked good.

  8. Jorge ValenzuelaAugust 25, 2020

    Betts is the first Dodgers ever to hit 2 home runs and stole 2 bases in the same game….(Sunday game) he is making history!!

  9. DodgerBlueMomAugust 25, 2020

    I am watching and wonder who is calling safe or out at first and who is calling strikes and balls at the plate. Seems Wood did good from what I saw.

  10. Mark TimmonsAugust 25, 2020

    Is Spectrum outsourcing their graphics to 5th graders?

  11. Mark TimmonsAugust 24, 2020

    Those guys standing in back of Graterol are nuts!

  12. Jeff DominiqueAugust 24, 2020

    Lux goes yard again off Gonsolin

  13. Mark TimmonsAugust 24, 2020

    MLB can’t his Tony, but the COVID squad is destroying him! 😉

  14. CassidyAugust 24, 2020

    Tom Verducci calling our taxi squad a playoff team in his article today. Probably not too far from truth. And labeling us a super team. Guess he hasn’t been reading LADT much!

  15. BobbyAugust 24, 2020

    Is it me, or does Hoese swing remind anyone else of Kris Bryant’s?

  16. Jeff DominiqueAugust 24, 2020

    Lux led off the game with a HR against Gonsolin.

  17. HawkeyedodgerAugust 24, 2020

    Lux took Gonsolin deep in the intersquad scrimmage today. There’s a live feed going on right now.

  18. BobbyAugust 24, 2020

    FYI, our taxi squad scrimmage can also be seen on dodgers.com

    It’s like our own system’s minor league all star game! Gonsolin vs Wood, and Lux led off the game with a HR off T-Gon

  19. hodges54August 24, 2020

    Bear, I am old school also but with no where near the knowledge that you and many others on this site display. I certainly don’t understand what many of stats mean today and don’t really feel that I need to know. I just enjoy following the Dodgers and watching them win as they have been lately.

    I usually go to the MLB.com Dodgers home page and scroll down and look at all the team standings. Then I keep scrolling down until I get to the Dodgers leaders in batting. They list the stats that I have always been interested in. They had five stats listed. They were BA, runs, HR’s, RBI’s and SB’s. They had the same player leading in all 5 stats. His name is Mookie Betts. He must be a very selfish player by not sharing the leads with any of his team mates. 🙂

  20. HawkeyedodgerAugust 24, 2020

    I like Dizzy. He’s a frustrating player. He’s very hot and cold over his career. He will get hot the Dodgers face lefties so then he sits awhile and comes back cold. This year we haven’t seen the hot streak yet. I think it will come. I don’t see the detachment and frankly was disappointed in people piling on him the other day. His defense in LF is more than adequate. I don’t think he has the arm for a RF. I can’t speak for his mental state after the trade went through but I have to believe he is happy to not be in Anaheim. Arbitration can certainly be an ugly thing. I believe AF tried to be understanding when the Dodgers didn’t even send anyone to the process. Joc will get hot again.

    Any post with Alice Cooper is a good one. When speaking of spoiled athletes “Billion Dollar Babies” could slide right in there.

  21. philjonesAugust 24, 2020

    Have you watched a game from a venue that has no fake crowd and minimal, if any, sound effects? The Yankees come to mind. It’s like a scrimmage in a hanger.

    I have complained in the past about the constant canned fake crowd noise at a piercing volume. I’m not a Dieter Ruehel fan.

    But with no fans at Dodger Stadium the same canned noise sounds like what is familiar. The cut outs I thought would be corny but they are fun and a visual improvement over empty seats. The volume seems tolerable. All in all the crowd noise match’s up with the game action pretty well.

  22. DodgerBlueMomAugust 24, 2020

    Question. Is Lance Lynn any relation to Fred Lynn who played for the RedSox?. Looked it up but could not find anything. Just wondered.

  23. CassidyAugust 24, 2020

    Without the fans no doubt a lot of energy has been zapped out of the game not only for the players but also for us fans. I know I feel it. It almost feels like a video game at times. But at least it brings some excitement into my socially distanced life. 2020 will be a year I’ll be excited to say goodbye to! And as far as old school, new school Clayton Kershaw is a player meant for any era! Still my favorite Dodger ever!

  24. sbuffaloAugust 24, 2020

    Interesting write-up. Framing is nothing new. We taught it in college fast pitch softball back in the 90s.

    I think some analytics make sense, some do not. But I also believe the Dodgers rely on scouting more than many think.

    One thing that has contributed to lower averages are shifts and players not making adjustments. There were two situations in a game the other day where the Dodgers had runners on first and second, nobody out, and the shift on. Instead of bunting down the line, pretty much a sure hit, the hitter pulled the ball into the shift and a double play. Hey, if you’re leading off and they move the third baseman to the SS position, drop a bunt.

    Hitters need to adapt and take advantage of opportunities, then averages will go up.

More from Dodger Talk

The Greatest Pitcher EVER – 1 Season!

Yesterday, it was said that Sandy Koufax was the greatest pitcher ever…. and I agree with that IF YOU JUST LOOK AT HIS LAST 5 SEASONS! However, in his first 7 seasons, he was really bad, then bad, then pretty good. Then, in his last 5 seasons, he became GREAT! However, what if…

By Mark Timmons · January 30, 202635

The Friedman Interview

Here is the video of the interview I did with Andrew Friedman on April 1, 2025, in the Dodgers’ Dugout right before the game. Enjoy! It’s just a casual conversation… I am not trying to be a “super announcer.” I’m just a fan interviewing the President of Dodger Baseball…

By Mark Timmons · April 11, 202554

A Great Night at the Ravine

We arrived at Dodger Stadium at 4:30 for the 7:10 game. Jon Weisman, who is the Dodgers VP of Communications and someone I have known for twenty-plus years, left me a Media Credential which is a “Get out of Jail Free Card” – it takes you anywhere in the stadium. My wife, son…

By Mark Timmons · April 2, 2025117

This is Serious!

Mookie Betts has been sick for nearly two weeks. He is still throwing up. Two weeks ago, he weighed 175 pounds. Now, he weighs 157 pounds. “ My body’s just kind of eating itself, ” he said. “I t’s hard to not fuel it. And so every time — literally, every time — I fuel my body, I…

By Mark Timmons · March 24, 202550