GOAT: Kershaw or Koufax?
There are a lot of Dodger fans who regard me as a heretic when I try and say that Clayton Kershaw will go down in history as the LA Dodgers Greatest Of All Time as a pitcher. But, that s my story and I m sticking to it! So, as we start, let s get this over with: Career Records Sandy Koufax 12 Seasons * 2,324 IP *2,396 K * 165 Wins
There are a lot of Dodger fans who regard me as a heretic when I try and say that Clayton Kershaw will go down in history as the LA Dodgers Greatest Of All Time as a pitcher. But, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it! So, as we start, let’s get this over with:
Career Records
- Sandy Koufax – 12 Seasons * 2,324 IP *2,396 K * 165 Wins * 87 Losses * 2.76 ERA * 1.106 WHIP * 204 HR * 131 ERA+
- Clayton Kershaw – 10 Seasons * 1,935 IP *2,120 K * 144 Wins * 64 Losses * 2.36 ERA * 1.002 WHIP * 128 HR * 161 ERA+
Don’t the Home Runs surprise you?
Kershaw stands to pass Koufax in wins and strikeouts next year. Both have been amazing pitchers, no matter how you slice it. Sandy pitched through age 30 while Clayton is coming up on age 30. Let me say something else: From 1963 to 1966, Sandy Koufax had the greatest run of any pitcher EVER in the history of man. Look at this:
- 1963 – 311 IP * 25-5 W-L* 1.88 ERA * 306 K * 0.875 WHIP
- 1964 – 223 IP * 19-5 W-L* 1.74 ERA * 223 K * 0.928 WHIP
- 1965 – 336 IP * 26-8 W-L* 2.04 ERA * 382 K * 0.855 WHIP
- 1966 – 323 IP * 27-9 W-L* 1.73 ERA * 317 K * 0.985 WHIP
- … and then he was gone after arguably the best season of his career!
No one will ever have a four year run like that…. NOBODY. But, it was only four years! Sandy was a finesse pitcher who could paint the corners (after age 25) but his repertoire was one of pure violence. His fastball and curve were among the most devastating the baseball world has ever seen. Yes, his delivery was smooth, but it was violent and it was no surprise that his arm fell off. But, man was it beautiful while it lasted!
Look at Sandy’s worst years:
- 4.01 ERA
- 3.88 ERA
- 4.48 ERA
- 4.05 ERA
- 3.91 ERA
- 3.52 ERA
… before he discovered he was Sandy “Freaking” Koufax! He was higher than the mountaintops, but his lows were also pretty low.
Clayton Kershaw is not the same type of pitcher. Clayton can dial it up at 97-98 MPH but he doesn’t, instead, operating in the 92 to 94 MPH range. Clayton Kershaw had a 4.26 ERA as a rookie and has never been below 2.91 since. Koufax had three years with a sub 2.00 ERA and so did Kershaw… he may have more in the future.
Some Dodger fans only remember Sandy’s last four years, not his struggles. You can talk about Koufax pitching 300 plus innings and say that Kershaw doesn’t do that, and that would be true… BUT NOBODY DOES! In 1963, eleven pitchers pitched over 250 innings. Three pitched over 300, including Koufax. In 1964, seven pitchers pitched more than 250 innings. In 1965, thirteen pitchers pitched over 250 innings and in 1966, the number was again eleven.
Back then, the top pitchers routinely pitched 250 to 300 innings. That doesn’t happen anymore and that’s a whole another conversation. It was a different time. We always remember “the good ole days” but were they always good… or just different?
Clayton does not put violent stress on his arm and I believe that he can become an even better pitcher in the future. Maybe Mark Prior is just what the Doctor ordered to get Clayton to change his patterns: Someone closer to his age and well respected. At any rate, Kershaw and Koufax compare favorably at this juncture. Greg Maddux won 228 games after his 29th birthday. He had 150 wins by age 29, Clayton has 144.
Time will tell, but I think Andrew Friedman, Stan Kasten and Guggs and Company will do everything in their power to have Clayton Kershaw finish his career in Blue and go into the Dodger Hall of Fame as the GOAT and Cooperstown as one of the all-time greats.
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Discussion (101)
Disagree, not disagreeable
2017 World Series Game 5: Kersh has a 4-0 lead and blows it. Then a 7-4 lead. And blows that.
There is no comparison for when it really matters.
I first became a Dodger fan at a young age following Koufax and Drysdale and they will always have a special place for me. Kershaw has sustained his excellence over a longer period and to me will be the GOAT (Dodgers) by the time he retires but I am not quite ready to put him there yet, for two reasons: He needs to take that final step and win championships and he needs to commit to the Dodgers to stay on for the long term. Both I believe are likely so I agree with Mark’s take.
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The Giants add Austin Jackson for 2 years and $6 M plus incentives per MLB trade rumors. He can still handle CF and had a nice offensive year last season. He feels a need for the Giants at a nice price but strikes out a lot and is on the decline. With Cutch and Longoria they are going for it this year while they still have MadBum but it is a risky strategy as they have little depth and a thin minor leagues to fall back on.
I believe Kershaw will be a Dodger for life. I am hopeful he gets at least one ring during his tenure. I also identify strongly with Hershiser as my favorite Dodger pitcher of all-time as his efforts in 1988 to will us to a title will never be surpassed for me.
I sincerely hope the Dodgers put Beuhler in the starting rotation out of ST. He just needs to pitch. Yes , like all hard throwers, he does not have the best control yet. He will need to be rested as the season progresses. By the end of the year we could have Kershaw #1 and Beuhler #2. I remember when Kershaw came up. He struggled his first year. Sending him back to AAA will do nothing for him except add innings on to his total.
Mark, There are a lot of stats that can make a case for either of these great pitchers. I said yesterday I never saw Koufax pitch, but to me, the difference between them is the postseason.
Koufax in 8 W S games won 4 and lost 3.
In his 3 loses he pitched 19 innings, gave up 17 hits, 7 runs, 3 earned, walked 4, struck out 17, and gave up zero HR.
In his 4 wins, he pitched 4 complete games, giving up 19 hits, 3 runs, 3 earned, walked 7, struck out 43 and gave up 2 HR.
In the 1965 WS against the Twins, he pitched 24 innings in 7 days giving up 2 runs, I earned. 1n game 5 with 3 days rest he pitched a shutout giving up 4 hits, 1 walk, and striking out 10. In game 7 also with 3 days rest, he pitched another shutout giving up 3 hits, 3 walks, and striking out 10.
His WS era is 0.95, is career regular season era is 2.76
Kershaw in the postseason is 7 and 7 with an era of 4.35 compared to his career regular season era of 2.36.
Kershaw still has time to change things around but for now, the question is, it’s the 7th game of the WS and it’s between Kershaw or Koufax for the start. I don’t have anywhere near the confidence in Kershaw as I have in Koufax. As of now the greatest Dodger pitcher is Sandy Koufax.
I grew up with Koufax and Drysdale. I wore out a lot of transistor radio batteries as I played the Dodger games under my pillow every night. Koufax will always be a hero (as will Drysdale), but I do not question who the greatest Dodger pitcher of all time is…Clem Labine (just kidding). At the end of his career, Kershaw will unquestionably be considered the greatest Dodger pitcher ever from a statistics point of view, and a certain HOF.
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A couple of other interesting comparisons:
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Koufax IP per season – 195.7
Kershaw IP per season – 195.5
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Koufax # of seasons 200+IP – 5
Kershaw # of seasons 200+IP -5
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Koufax Winning % – 65.48%
Kershaw Winning % – 69.23%
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Koufax K/9 IP – 9.28
Kershaw K/9 IP – 9.86
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For we sexagenarians and older, there is no replacement for what Koufax, Drysdale, Podres, Gilliam, Wills, Hodges, Snider, T Davis, W. Davis, Fairly, Moon, Roseboro, Parker, Howard, Sherry, Perranoski…did to mold our love for baseball in general and the Dodgers specifically. But as we have in life, we move on. It is not hard (at least for me) to recognize the greatness of Clayton Kershaw. But I also recognize that overall greatness must also consider team success. Koufax was a member of 6 WS teams (55, 56, 59, 63, 65, 66), winning 4 (55, 59, 63, 65). Kershaw has been in 1 WS.
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As an aside, only Sandy Koufax and Johnny Podres were pitchers who represented the Dodgers in 6 WS. Podres would have been 7, but he was serving in the military in 1956. Podres was a member of the 53, 55, 59, 63, 65, & 66 WS. But the best of the best in terms of representing Dodger players in WS is #19 (my first Dodger jersey), Junior Gilliam. Gilliam actually played in 7 WS as a Dodger (53, 55, 56, 59, 63, 65, 66). However, WS participation and rings cannot negate greatness as a player. Otherwise Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, Carl Yastremski, Billy Williams, Jim Rice, and Ron Santo, who never won a WS, would have their greatness minimized. In fact, of that group, only Williams (1), Yastremski (2), and Rice (1) ever got to a WS.
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Kershaw will go down as the greatest Dodger pitcher, but he will need to win a couple of WS as a Dodger to be as revered as Koufax.
The stats don’t lie. Both will go down as great pitchers and we are lucky to have both of them as Dodger’s. When my daughter was 8 years old, she told me she would name her first boy after my favorite Dodger. True to her word, I can now hug my grand son, Sanford Koufax _________ and think back on when I watched my favorite pitcher at Dodger Stadium.
Looking forward to the upcoming season, it can’t happen soon enough!
Both will be and are great pitchers. You can look at stats and compare the two, but that does not tell the story. They pitched in different times and asked to do different things. In my mind Clayton has a violent delivery. He very well may have medical issues as he gets older. I hope Not. I sincerely hope he is a Dodger for life. That does not happen very often in today’s baseball world. As I get older I can only hope that guys like Seager and Bellinger remain Dodgers for life. I love what Campanella said about baseball. “It is a child’s game being played by adults.” Campanella has been and always will be my favorite player.