Dodger Killers
With the passing in the last week or so of Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, and now Joe Morgan, I got to thinking about players who always seem to be at their best against the Dodgers. It has always seemed to me like some players just have another team s number. Take for example, Willie McCovey. His BA against the Dodgers in 297 games was .241. He hit 45 HR s and had
With the passing in the last week or so of Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, and now Joe Morgan, I got to thinking about players who always seem to be at their best against the Dodgers.
It has always seemed to me like some players just have another team’s number. Take for example, Willie McCovey. His BA against the Dodgers in 297 games was .241. He hit 45 HR’s and had 162 RBI’s. He struck out 212 times. But against a Dodger great, Don Drysdale, he hit .336 with 12 homers over their careers. McCovey was not exactly a Dodger killer, but he inflicted a lot of wounds and owned Drysdale.
Stan Musial comes to mind. Over 432 games ” The Man ” hit .341 with a .596 slugging pct, and 74 HR’s and 241 RBI’s He drew 249 walks and struck out only 90 times. Yep, “The Man” owned the Dodgers. He treated Ebbets Field like a second home hitting a whopping .359 there with a .660 Slugging pct, and an OPS of 1.108. The highest of any park he played in including Sportsman’s Park, his home field. He also OPS’d over 1.000 at the Polo Grounds.
Musial once hit 5 homers in a double header at Ebbets Field. Too bad that after the 40’s ended, Stan never got another shot at playing in the World Series.
Although they did have some success against him, Willie Mays was another player who did very well against the Dodgers. 98 HR’s, 251 RBI’s, and a .309 BA with a .595 slugging average. And Mays could kill them with his glove and his legs. He was 33 of 51 stealing. But it was when he was on the basepath’s stretching hits that he was most dangerous.
Sometimes one of your own comes back to bite you. Roberto Clemente played 291 games against the Dodgers. He was not the power threat that Mays, Musial or McCovey were, but he did damage nonetheless. He had 395 career hits against the Dodgers. More than against any other team. Although only 80 were for extra bases, he managed to drive in 129 runs. For most of his career the Pirates were a lousy team. They had some good players, and won in 1960, but fell off of the grid until the 70;s with the team that beat Baltimore in 1970. He was killed on a mercy flight on New Year’s Eve 1972.
Hank Aaron had very good career stats against the Dodgers. A .302 BA, 95 HR’s and 247 RBI’s. Although not considered a big stolen base threat, Hank was 21 of 24 against the Dodgers. And he was a great defender.
One some forget is Orlando Cepeda. He also was very good against the Dodgers. A .280 BA, 40 HR’s and 164 RBI’s. Cepeda was traded because the Giants had McCovey. Will Clark hit .311 against the Dodgers. His power numbers are not all that high, but he was traded to the AL.
Jack Clark may not have been the most prolific, but he had some moments that are locked in the fans memory’s. Tony Gwynn, although not a slugger, hit .330 against the Dodgers. 67 of his 271 hits were for extra bases. He caused a lot of anxiety for Dodger pitchers.
Albert Pujols, although his skills have declined since he became an Angel, still has managed to keep his average just below .300 at .297. 49 of his 119 hits against LA have been for extra bases.
One of our foes in the NLCS, Freddie Freeman has not fared well against Dodger pitching in the past. He has a .266 BA, but only 6 HR’s and 20 RBI’s in 55 games. Here is a shocker for you, Ronald Acuna Jr. has played only 10 games against LA. He is hitting a paltry .114 against Dodger pitching. He has 2 HR’s and 5 ribbies. 4 of those coming on the Grand Slam he hit off of Buehler in 2018. Ozuna, has a career .231 BA against the Dodgers. 7 homers and 17 RBI’s.
Joe Morgan had a career .256. BA and hit 29 homer’s and 106 RBI’s. He did most of his damage when he was a Red.
Although he had a losing record against them Warren Spahn had 36 complete games in 66 outings against the Dodgers and he only allowed 34 homers. Whitey Ford finished 3-4 against the Dodgers in post season play. Mainly because he lost 2 games in the 63 sweep.
Despised by most LA fans, Juan Marichal rang up a 37-18 career record against LA. He had a paltry 2.36 ERA and only allowed 37 HR’s, He struck out 305 and walked 104. I find it odd that Bob Gibson had a losing record against the Dodgers at 17-23. His ERA was 3.58. I think a lot of that can be attributed to how bad some of those Cardinal teams were.
But for pure dominance in a single season, few can compare to what Larry Jaster did in 1966. Even though they went on to the World Series, Jaster who posted a 11-5 regular season record was 5-0 against the Dodgers. And ALL 5 games were complete game shutouts. Jaster was barely over .500 in his career, but 9 of his 35 wins came at the Dodgers expense.
Joe Morgan was a class act, and one of the best clutch players I ever saw. Mays was the best player I ever saw. But Mantle was close. Some asked me about Bonds. Barry was a .263 hitter against the Dodgers. He walked an awful lot, and hit 64 HR’s in 274 games. His dad, Bobby, hit .254 with 20 homers against LA. I remember one that really hurt. The Dodgers had led 9-0. And Bonds led a furious comeback that climaxed with a grand slam by Bonds to win the game. Bad memory.
I probably left out more than a few. I remember Eddie Mathews as always being a good hitter against the Dodgers, and Joe Adcock also. Big Klu, Bill Virdon. Mantle, Berra and Skowron always played well against the Dodgers in the series until 63. Koufax owned those guys even though the Mick hit a dinger in game 4. Maris did no damage at all, and Skowron was a Dodger.
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Discussion (83)
Disagree, not disagreeable
Thank you, Bear, for a very interesting article. I also remember Paul Goldschmidt, when he played for the Diamondbacks, as being someone who was hard to get out and hit very well against the Dodgers. Also, a nice guy it seems.
Braves earned the win last night, now it’s Kershaw tonight, this is his chance to put the past behind him and get the win the Dodgers need. Play ball.
Per Ken Gurnick
Clayton Kershaw scratched with back spasms. Tony Gonsoliin starts tonight
Good write up today Bear. Quite a list of all-star players, huh?
It will be interesting to get more on CK’s back. As STB reports going in the IL means it’s over for him for the year.
If you pitch by committee and match ups, this has the potential of happening. Buehler, Graterol, May and Gonzales did great. Hey, bottom line is you don’t win many with 1 run on 4 hits. Braves pitching was dominant.
Do better today.
I was going to write about last night’s game, in terms of what it meant for the series, which I think was more than just the one loss. In brief,, it got down to the two bullpens in a tie game, and theirs did better. I think that their bullpen is better, though others disagree. I have seen us lose crucial series in past years to the Cardinals simply because their bullpen arms were more effective against our hitters than ours were against theirs. I would say that the final game against Washington last year also came down to that, Roberts using Kershaw because he did not have enough bullpen arms that he trusted. I think that the Braves and Rays have better bullpens than we do. We may have a better offense, but not if it doesn’t show up in latter stages of the playoffs.
Now Kershaw is out for today. Can he pitch tomorrow? If he is out for the series, we will lose it. Even if he can pitch tomorrow, it means he cannot start game 7. We used two starters in relief last night, not for long stints, but it doesn’t help. We’re going to have to go, Gonsolin, maybe Kershaw, if not, then Urias, May, Wood, Buehler, Gonsolin, if we somehow get that far? It is bad luck that Kershaw is hurting, but of course he has had back problems for the last few years.
I will not repeat at length what I have said, that the Dodgers ownership and management does not try to build a virtually impregnable team, even for a year or two, but is always obsessed with the salary cap, to the extent that we did not do anything at the trade deadline for two straight seasons, and did not add a closer. Last year, Roberts did not want to use Jansen in crucial situations in the playoffs, and that is the case again this year. So why did we not go all-out after the best closer we could get, even if we had to give up one or two of our precious minor league talents? One thing about Alex Anthropolous, he takes risks, and sometimes they do not work out, but he went after bullpen arms in Atlanta. I do not blame Friedman nearly as much as Kasten and Wallter, whoever keeps setting these limits on whom we can go after, so that when we get to the later stages of the playoffs, we do not want to be in games where the bullpen decides it, because we almost always lose those. Does anyone remember more than say, one key playoff game in the last ten years where our bullpen was great, and won it?
Maybe I am premature here, and I do hope so, but even before we learned about Kerahaw, it seemed from last night’s game that we are in the same spot as last year, with a lineup which is superb during the regular season, but does not do well against top pitching; with an insufficient relief corps with no real star, and now in this particular year with a short-handed starting staff where we are relying on two rookies and another young pitcher who has done his best work in relief. Yes, Price opted out, and yes, Kershaw’s back and Buehler’s blister. There is always some reason why we do not win a title, just bad luck, from year to year? And I will add that if you ever listen to Roberts after a playoff loss, you would not be impressed, as he rather stubbornly tries to explain how he made all the right choices, he thinks we played well, except for this or that, things are just fine–until the season is over, and he will tell us how proud he is of the team, and that we just didn’t quite go all the way, again. I will say this: if we rally and pull out this series against the Braves, it will be very impressive, and I will say just that. But I think that both Atlanta and Tampa Bay have better bullpens than we do, and at this point, better staffs overall, and the World Series will likely feature those two upcoming franchises.
One more add: it is pretty bothersome to see that with the best record in baseball, we are playing in front of fans who mostly favor the Braves, because Georgia is a lot closer to Texas. If the same game as last night was played in Dodger Stadium, we may well have won it. We have a potential of seven games where the crowd, such as it is, is going to be for the other team, and that is ridiculous, the NL playoffs should have been played in California. But that is an obstacle that a great team must overcome. And a great manager, which we do not have, whether or not one is more positive about Roberts in general.
1) Mookie Betts, RF
2) Corey Seager, SS
3) Justin Turner, 3B
4) Max Muncy, 1B
5) Will Smith, C
6) Cody Bellinger, CF
7) AJ Pollock, LF
8) Joc Pederson, DH
9) Chris Taylor, 2B
Sorry William but you can’t sign all stars at every position. You can’t fault ownership that spends at the top of the chart every year. And stop blaming Roberts. We have a group of talented players, a better collection of talent than any other team over the past several years that just doesn’t perform anywhere near their regular season level when the lights are turned up in October! Plain and simple
We hit, we win. We don’t we won’t.
Last night was one of those games where the nothing in all or nothing showed up. It happens to this team. Treinen sucked. He had a few bad outings late in the year, ballooning his ERA from1.04 to 3.86 in 10 days in September. But his 6 outings before last night were ok. It happens. But you score 1 run on 4 hits you’re only gonna win if Koufax is pitching, and he isn’t putting a uniform back on any time soon.
Hit. Score. Win. That’s my strategy.
I will go out on a limb to make a bold prediction: the rest of the team will step up and come through for us, and we will beat the Braves without CK and KJ.
No Kershaw for Game 3.
Cheers to Badger’s above post. Summed up by my feeble brain as:
You can’t win if you don’t score.
We had won nine straight going into game 1 of the NLCS. Was the expectation that the Dodgers would steamroll through the post season with a 13-0 record? We lost a tough one and now the sky is falling. This series will go seven games and the Dodgers will finish on top. If they don’t, I’m out $502 because that’s my plane fare to Dallas to watch game 2 of the World Series, (my brother scored some tickets).
I like Gonsolin for game 2. The Braves haven’t faced him ever. Hopefully his intrasquad workouts were enough because his two week lay off from the mound I find a little bit concerning.
I read a prediction yesterday where an Athletic journalist predicted Fried would prevail in game one but the Dodgers would invariably win the series. I haven’t read a single person who predicted 13-0. I haven’t read a single post that said the “sky is falling”. What we have hashed over is some history leading to this point and why we are, where we are. There is some valid conversation going on. Our pitching is what it is. It’s been a management decision and a little bad luck losing Fergy. This is what we have and if we succeed it will be by committee in the bullpen.
Evan, who here said the “sky is falling”?
So, why hasn’t Gonzo pitched in 16 days? Throwing in a sim game at USC isn’t exactly pitching in the NLCS. I wish him well. I like the kid. But why the lay off?
Bottom line for the 3rd time…..you don’t win scoring 1 run on 4 hits.
Michael Norris (AKA Bear)
The comments are closed on yesterday’s thread. But I’d like to point out a couple things you said about me yesterday that are false.
You said I don’t produce stats to back up my arguments and that is absolutely false. I figured that since I’ve produced bullpen stats several times that I didn’t need to continue to produce those stats over and over again. And by the way I don’t remember the last time you produced stats.
You said that I said defense is not important while also telling me to get MY facts straight. Well you might want to get YOUR facts straight because those are not the words I used. And by the way you said this to me awhile back “if you don’t have good defense nothing else matters”. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard anyone say in my entire life.
You might want to check your attitude at the door. You remind everyone it seems like everyday that you have watched baseball for over 65 years and so that means you are somehow better than everyone else. Yea you might also want to check your ego at the door too.
It’s guys like you that hang around this website that makes me think twice about posting here.
Actually you are the only one hanging around here that makes me think twice about posting here.
I seem to recall JR Richard being a Dodger killer back in the day.
~
I haven’t gone gaga over Jake McGee. I think he’s done a nice job this year. Certainly better than I expected when they signed him. A lefty chucking in straight fastball after straight fastball seems like a potential disaster against good teams. Maybe the Dodgers increased his spin rate. I don’t know for sure though. Losing Ferguson was a big loss than people realize.
Wait…. $30 for pancakes?
Ouch! That’s all we need, there isn’t enough hate outdoors already. GO DODGERS
So Muncy steps in with runners on the corners 2 outs and my first thought was “I wish it was Smith”.
Then with the bases loaded…… doink.
Looks like the Braves are going for matchups. Walked Muncy twice to get to Smith. Result—5 LOB. Bas were ball is often a games where you have only a few opportunities during a game to score. Hopefully, we will have a few more. Gotta keep plug-in’ away!
I just have to say it is so frustrating watching this offense. How in the world did seager ever hit 300? He has no clue where the strike zone is and is such a rally killer in the playoffs. Smith has got to be taken out of the 5 spot. He has had one game. Then, why is Betts not running with a catcher that can’t throw and our punchless lineup. We just absolutely have a pathetic offense in the playoffs. AGAIN! Just as I am writing this freeman homers so it’s over.
That wasn’t a bad pitch. Just better hitting.
You gotta get with them to play with them.
99% of games that you don’t score any runs you will lose.
The age old baseball question—is it good pitching or lousy hitting? I suppose it depends on who you are rooting for. Tough to take in either case. They need a shaman or someone to break the spell they’re in. I’m 76– I’ve seen this all too often.
Another life lesson—You aren’t as good as you think you are.
Next life lesson—gotta keep trying.
When will the Baez experiment be over?